So, my advice to anyone in that place (actually anyone breathing): develop a plan to get God’s Word in your mind. Without that, we cannot have *renewed minds* (Rom. 12:2), nor can we stare at Jesus and be changed by Him (2 Cor. 3:18). Leaders must do this more than anyone else. We must read, think and meditate on the Text until we burn for Him.

We cannot be mediocre readers, or we will be mediocre leaders. Plain and simple.

It is certainly possible to not be seminary-trained and be quite effective in serving Christ (a dozen Apostles and our Savior come to mind).

In addition to being people of The Book, I encourage you to:
- Read good books (probably by at least some dead people) — particularly on the Person and Work of Jesus: His worth, work and ways. the latest and greatest simply will not make deep disciples of Jesus who are willing to suffer for Him.
(If anyone wants a list of the books and authors that have most shaped me, feel free to email me // jp at deTheos dot com.)

- Rub shoulders with godly people – mentoring is key. More is ‘caught than taught,’ as they say.

- Be a servant – one great criticism of seminary is that it does not automatically produce servants. Point taken.
Do you love the local church? Are you willing to lay down your life for other people, many of whom don’t care about you (or reciprocate)? The key is to sit and meditate on the Great Servant and follow in His steps, in His power.

Appreciate your insight. I think you hit the nail right on the preverbial head. I think this all boils down to my age and going to school late in life. I had a very successful 25 year career in high tech when I decided to go into ministry and attend Seminary thinking it would be hard work, but not like this.

I think Seminary is really challenging for somebody like me because we have a ton of experience, but we lack both the desire as well as the mental power to do the work Seminary dolls out. There is another guy in one of my classes and he is late 40s and just starting out and he is overwhelmed as well – deer in headlights. Not sure he is going to make it either. I am going to see him tomorrow at class and I am going to talk to him about it. But I think you are right Chad and its not the Seminary’s fault. They shouldnt lessen the curriculum just because you have a couple of “old” guys in there, it is our responsibility to catch up.

Extensions dont offer much in the way of counseling or support. It is a small office and I wouldnt expect that they could offer that much nor do I really need it. Pastoral counseling isnt going to be able to help me write a research paper lol. I have just come to the conclusion that Seminary is just not for everybody.

But it is a shame that it is this tough and there arent alot of options because honeslty, more older people (never thought I would say that about myself lol) would do great in ministry because of our vast experience. I have more organizational and business experience in my little finger then my entire pastoral team including the admin pastor. But that is not what Seminary is for. Maybe I have to look at other routes and options and there is nothing that says I cant be a part of ministry without a formal degree.

For me, its not the quantity of the work required, but it is the ‘type” of work. I can usually read 200-300 pages at a sitting, but this Seminary reading is so deep that it takes me a half hour to read 15 pages because I have to revert back to the dictionary of terms because of all the words I dont understand plus I dont have the background…and quite frankly, I simply dont like it. It isnt interesting to me and I find it joyless. I am already tired of these writers with all their different theories and philosophies… I mean, I had to look up “eschatology” today and it took me forever to get through it. The definition alone was 9 double column pages and it was just crazy how deep they went. For the 44 year old lay person that just wants to help people find Jesus, it was just too deep and something I would probably never use. I could honestly care less about all the different theories on it. I just know Jesus is coming back and that is enough for me.

Well, I have been praying for guidance through this, and have pretty much come to the conclusion that I am going to drop out of Seminary and go back into the work world — its just not for me…and that is OK. I am disappointed as will alot of people that have been excited for me and monitoring my every move. Everybody is praying and pulling for me (I am in a large church) and I am going to lose alot of face over this, but I have to do what I feel I am being led to do.

Both of my profs are fantastic. Extremely interesting, well meaning, great instructors. Its not them, its the entire way Seminary is set up and all the reading that is required….that and the fact that I am an old guy lol.

Thanks to all of you for your support. It means alot to me. I pray that all of you are successful in your Seminary study and your ministries. Like Jesus said, the harvest is ready….this world is slipping fast and we need to be the light for the world. God Bless all of you….

It seems that you have many of the frustrations that I see with new “older” students at Asbury. The average age of a new student at my school is around 28-30, but after that we get a large amount of 2nd (and 3rd career) students. The ones that I have talked too do look at the work load a bit and freak out. I think that many school aren’t geared towards the older student, especially since you are at an extension. Fuller is starting to get the reputation as a top notch school, and the academics are getting emphasized more and more (I have several friends at the main campus). I think that many of your issues are tied up in the extension campus world, but thats all I am going to say about that.

Is there an official estimate of how many pages you have to read a semester per hour? At Asbury I think it is in the neighborhood of 5-700. For an intro class, a 25 pager does seem to be a bit much-but is it the only thing that you are having to write?

My first semester I took a class in which the professor required us to take notes on the reading and turn a notebook in at the end of the semester. Mine was around 220 pages, but the reason behind it was for us to have a resource in our own writing that we can use for future reference, and I use mine at least twice a week.

I would talk to your prof’s. Is there an office of community life, or a school chaplain that can help you? I work in our chapel office and have calmed down many new students this year.

DD-my prayers are with you, please stick this through.

chads last blog post..Warning: Confessional content inside

On the grades aspect, that may be some of the problem. At my age, I am sincerely not worried about grades, “C’s” are fine, but at the same time, I dont have enough experience yet with Seminary to know how they grade or what they test on, so I am taking it all very seriously and reading everything assigned. Also, the research papers that I have to do this semester just are freaking me out. Literally I am scared to death. I looked at some sample papers and I havent done a paper in 25 years! I looked at all the different format styles and I think I am just lost. I have a 15 page paper that is required for my first class and another smaller one for my second. I looked online at some sample papers and I thought they were clinical, sterile and honestly, a waste of time. I guess you learn something through them….

I have done alot of thinking and praying about this alot. I am setting up an appointment with my pastor who is also very supportive to talk to him about all of this and get his opinion and counsel.

I am Assembly of God and one of the reasons I even wanted to go to Seminary is because I found that at my church (it is large, 7 pastors) only 2 of them have an actual formal Seminary education and I thought that was not acceptable so I wanted to really go after it and add to the staff’s knowledge. That was before I found out what Seminary was all about and its funny because the 5 pastors at my church that dont have a seminary education are always asking me how it is going because they are scared of it too lol.

My Seminary choices are actually very limited where I live. It would take a move if I wanted to go somewhere else and that is totally impossible. BTW: I go to a Fuller Seminary extention (the fact that it is an extention may have something to do with my issues)/

So, I very much appreciate your prayers, I could use all I can get. To be specific, here is what I would like you to pray for:

1. I love the Lord with all my heart and I want to serve Him. Here is my biggest issue – I want to be a Kingdom builder. Not to get too personal, but I made alot of money when I was working and I learned to give most of it away and fund different projects around the world. I got right with money and used it for the Lord. When I quit working , I couldnt make that kind of contribution anymore and was thinking the Lord was now leading me to Seminary and a more active pastoral role building His kingdom. At 43 (44 in 2 months) that is a big time change. Now, with what I have faced with Seminary, I am really struggling to see if I am on the right path and maybe I shouldnt have quit my job afterall because my role was to “fund” the Kingdom and not lead it. Know what I mean? So prayers towards that would be outstanding. What does He want me to do? Oh yeah, to add more complexity to the entire thing, my company fired my replacement and has personally asked me to come back and take my old job back. Urgh!

2. If I do stay in Seminary, prayers of support to help me get used to it (it is a culture shock, go from a corner office and suit to a classroom, jeans and homework lol) and accept the way the program is set up and learn all I can from it.

Again, I appreciate all of your support and prayers. It means alot to me. This is a fantastic site! I am starting to feel better already lol….

God Bless each of you in your ministries….

DD

Thank you for sharing your experiences. Many probably share them … and many have had a polar opposite experience (my wife and I at Multnomah here in Portland have tasted of the latter and not the former, as you have). We have grow more in love with our Savior, and become more passionate to see His church become all she has been redeemed to be.

One of the challenges of writing articles here is that our experiences cannot be so generalized in words as to perfectly relate to the specific particulars of everyone’s experiences.

Every seminar is different, probably for good reason. The contributors here attend Asbury, Southern Seminary in Louisville, and RTS Orlando, as well as my wife and I at Multnomah in Portland. Not sure what school you’ve been at this Fall.

I welcome any interaction off the GTS site (my email is below) if that helps.

Any else have words for our brothers in Christ?

Because of Jesus,

Jeff Patterson
jp at deTheos dot com

Yeah, your struggles are something we all can identify with. It reflects the fact that the seminary model as we know if a product of medieval scholasticism and the Enlightenment. If you study the history of Christianity in the West, that is the time where you see theology become something so intellectualized. While I think we’ve certainly made some healthy recoveries since then, the marks of being rooted in that tradition are still very, very evident.

I’m not sure if you saw the interview Ryan and I did with John Frame, one of the professors at Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando, but he is pretty active in promoting something different than what our seminaries are like. And I think he’s right–we need to focus a lot more on the practical aspects of what it means to be engaged in ministry.

I do think it is important that pastors and church leaders be knowledgeable and able to deal with theology and other related scholarship, and so I do see a place for that in seminary. But, as Frame suggests, maybe we need to find more ways to learn how to put that into practice and make the connection between theology and practice.

Don’t forget also that different seminaries have different flavors. There really are no two alike. Maybe the seminary you are currently attending is very academic. Although it would be quite a significant change, maybe you could consider attending a different seminary. Maybe you could find out the professors at your school who have the most pastoral heart and get to know them well and find out how they balance the scholarly with the pastoral. Find some fellow students who are struggling with the same thing and get together once a week to talk about how to deal with it all, how to make some of the things you are learning relevant for the people you are ministering too. Pray with them and encourage each other.

One other thing to remember is that when it comes down to it, your grades really don’t matter very much at all. Nobody is going to ask you what your grade was in Greek or in hermeneutics. Sure, you want to do your best and make an honest effort to learn, but you don’t want to kill yourself with overloading. There’s a balance to find. Sometimes you’re just going to say “forget it” when it’s near the end of a semester and you haven’t opened a book yet, and that’s okay. A lot of the professors don’t expect you to read everything they assign. They know that would be ridiculous. Part of the learning is learning how to balance and prioritize your work (a very important thing to know how to do once you are a pastor!).

I hope that can offer a little bit of encouragement, D.D. I always have a huge deal of respect for guys like you who are willing to give it all up to go back to school, especially to seminary. It shows the devotion of your heart to following the call of the Lord and your faith in Him to lead you. It is humbling. I hope that in this struggle He will give you strength. Remember that you are doing this for His glory, and His strength is often made known in our weakness!

My prayers are with you, and I hope you’ll keep us posted on how things are going.

Jake Belders last blog post..Discussion Question 1

As I dug into that mountain of reading, I was just floored by how the PhD authors treated the scriptures like it was some scholarly project that they could just tear apart. I could smell pride on every page. Just all the in-depth comparisons and some even said that Paul was “mentally unbalanced!”

You know, if Seminary is going to make me feel like this for the next 2 years, I would rather save the $30K (I am getting NO financial aid, all of it comes out of my pocket) and give it to missionaries and go about my business serving the Lord in my current capacity. My main goal to even attend Seminary is not to preach, I just wanted the educational background of the scriptures and a deeper understanding of Jesus so I can help people come to the Lord. Maybe act as a outreach pastor…plus I have a real affinity for the Mormons and bringing them back to the real Jesus…I was thinking that maybe I would go that route after graduation to do missionary work to them. But I am seeing just after 6 hours in the classroom that I dont need a Seminary degree to do that, plus I want to partake in nothing that takes away from my love of the Lord or my zeal for Him, his apostles, his message and His word!

I am thoroughly disappointed and quite honestly, very depressed over my experience so far, like I am this huge failure…but after much thought and prayer, I kind of feel like “maybe this is why Christianity is having such trouble in the US and Europe” — our Seminaries have forgotten to teach Jesus’s love and are more concerned with scholarly crossing of Ts and dotting of I’s and the never ending points of view on scripture…seems everybody has a theory….

Anyway, again, sorry for venting, but I am really frustrated and I literally gave away an entire 20 year business career to pursue Seminary and I am really quite angry with my school for not enlightening me on what it was really all about instead of the slick marketing advertisements and all that and the total lack of help or assistance. The President of the University is coming to my town in a week and I think I am going to make an appearance and just let him know what I think and how disappointed I am in it all….I wonder if he will even take it seriously.

I remember reading somewhere that “God opposes the proud…change and become like little children”….let me tell you, Seminary has some changing to do….

I experienced the same lassiez-faire attiude when signing up.
I received no assistance and did not even receive instruction on how to access the website, etc. It was frustrating, but I figured most of i out for myself. It is unfortunate that there isn’t someone to help you transition into seminary life.